S2E3. T. Braun: Boundless Bodies Trans-ing in Social VR
Susie Showers speaks with artist and PhD researcher T. Braun about their experiences in virtual reality (VR) and how it fosters connection, particularly within queer and trans communities. They explore the unique aspects of social VR platforms like VRChat, which allow users to create and share their own worlds, offering a sense of presence that traditional platforms lack. T. shares insights on embodiment in virtual spaces, which can challenge and expand our understanding of identity, and discusses the implications of glitch feminism, highlighting the importance of ruptures in dominant narratives. They also touch on how VR can create safe spaces for queer and trans individuals, redefine physical boundaries, and serve as a tool for people with disabilities to connect. The transformative nature of these connections, the prevalence of community conversations about boundaries, and the vast potential for creative expression in inclusive VR environments all point to a future where VR continues to build spaces for community and creativity.
Learn more about T's amazing work
Susie (00:00)
Hello, welcome to Pleasure Morsels. I am Susie Showers and I am thrilled to be here with T. Braun. T. is an artist and researcher who creates virtual worlds and performances that challenge hegemonic notions of gender.
They're based here in Tio:tia'ke otherwise known as Montreal, where they're pursuing a PhD in humanities at Concordia University. Their work explores how queer and trans VR enthusiasts envision the metaverse, create gender -affirming content, and form emergent, imaginative communities. They're currently conducting interviews and co -creating virtual worlds with trans artists in the social VR platform VRChat.
I'm so stoked to be talking with you about this thing that I know so little about and that's so exciting. Welcome.
T. (00:57)
Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm excited to talk with you about it.
Susie (01:01)
Brilliant. So my first question is for you. How have VR relationships expanded your own ideas of our human capacity for connection?
T. (01:13)
Yes, great question. Very loaded question. I love it. I think because this is a world and a technology so few people are familiar with, I'll try and do a very quick summary of what it is I'm talking about. during the pandemic, like all of us, I was looking for ways to connect with people.
you know, the promise that Zoom had of being this great way of connecting us just like did not create the sense of presence that I think we all so badly hoped it would. And I had a friend who played a lot of VR and this is all social VR I'm talking about. So a lot of folks will have gone into a gallery and put on a headset maybe or played a game. And those are very solo experiences. And you often don't have a sense of your body there.
you won't look at yourself in a mirror and see your avatar. You might see like outlines of your hands. It's very different to be in social VR, which I some friends, sorry, cat.
Susie (02:14)
me, I think we must introduce the cat because she's like a collaborator of yours.
T. (02:19)
She is a collaborator. She'll probably come back again. She'll really purr. So I got kind of drawn into this world of VRChat, which is the social platform that I use and do research in and hang out in and have relationships in. And what's special about that platform in particular is that the developers kind of created this empty space. And what they said they wanted to do was just let people create things and see what happens.
So it ended up being this sort of emergent space of people, like anywhere from like a 16 -year -old kid to a super experienced coder could create worlds and avatars. And then you would just hang out and show each other what you created. So at times it feels very similar to early internet culture, where it felt like this vast space where we could just do things. there weren't, before there were like apps that kind of dictated how we communicated with one another. So I showed up there. I was immediately amazed at how present I felt because I was with other people, because there was spatial audio, because I could like say look in a mirror and watch my movements be reflected in my avatar. It was just really remarkable. Even when I was in a place where graphics weren't super high quality. So yeah, that's like a super quick, and then like the community that my friends ended up kind of bringing me into is this sort of underground community of queer and trans people who are finding ways to connect with one another, to build bodies and worlds that not just like reflect trans embodiment, I think expand our idea of what it is through this like really wild technology that I think, you know, semantically sort of re rewires us in interesting ways. What was your question?
Susie (04:16)
Right, so you are answering it. You're talking about our capacity for connection and I'm hearing that it's open source, it's accessible, anyone can join, and that your own body and witnessing other bodies is kind of creating new neural pathways in your mind.
T. (04:40)
Yes, yes. Yeah, so then what I started doing was just experimenting with different kinds of bodies. So there are lots of worlds with avatars that people have uploaded, and you can just click on different ones and see what it feels like to be in that body. They're very, the platform also reflects, I think, our desires as shaped by late capitalism cut the ways that we're pressured to fit certain molds. So there are a lot of very femme avatars, very sexual avatars that kind of Kardashian -esque, I'll say. So, I tried on those bodies just to see, and that did create like a different sense of embodiment to what I normally have. But the ones that felt really interesting and exciting were times when I could become like a slime monster, for example, and
Susie (05:37)
I want to pause because I would like some detail about what is it like to be a slime monster as a big enjoyer of slime things. Please go into detail.
T. (05:49)
Yeah. So there's this one great avatar that I like where even when you pull your virtual hands apart, you see the threads of slime pull and stick back together. And it's shiny. It's bulbous. You also, in this one, you have long ears. And you don't really have two legs. You're kind of like a dress -shaped blob that slides along.
So all of that, like besides being visually interesting, what I found is that it then completely changed my relationship with the boundaries of my body or opened up like new sensations, like to have my hands pull apart like this and to see the strands. I mean, you might even be able to like get some sensation now just imagining it. So then imagine how heightened that might be when you're in a virtual space, like seeing it in real time or having somebody else like pull on your slime. Like that's an interesting sensation.
Susie (06:57)
Ok deep breaths. I do have a slime thing. you're saying what's it like when someone else pulls on your slime. I don't know what question to ask, but I wanna know more of like, okay, what is that? What sensations do you get when another avatar comes in and pulls on yours?
T. (07:00)
Yeah. Well, so there's this phenomenon that VR users call phantom sense. So this is when you see something visual and the visual of it triggers a sensation somehow. Things are visually triggered. Some people are like, it's kind of like ASMR, like kind of in that world or maybe like also in phantom limb world.
In that case, like if somebody pulls on my slime, get sort of tingles on the part of my body where that interaction is happening, which can be really exciting and interesting. It can be really uncomfortable. can just also the avatars, they don't have colliders on them, meaning that somebody could stick their hand through your body or you could stick your hand through someone else's body accidentally or on purpose. So it also opens up all these questions around like, what are my boundaries in this space where there are so few boundaries where it's so like, kind of unregulated and wild and open and free.
Susie (08:25)
And I know that in your work you are playing with glitch feminism. Is this kind of an example of that or can you explain more what that means?
T. (08:38)
Yeah. So I'll try not to get too theoretical, but I'll have to a little. And it's a very accessible book. So I do recommend that everybody read Glitch Feminism, a Manifesto by Legacy Russell. It's an awesome book. And in it, she talks about how typically we think of glitch as something that needs to be corrected. And most of our online experiences are supposed to be very smooth and seamless. And glitches are often annoying. There are some artists who play with glitch art and try and simulate it, but those aren't often an unexpected rupture. So she talks about glitches as related to the lives of people in her book, specifically queer people and trans people of colour and the moments of rupture they might experience in their everyday lives as where the dominant narrative is one of like white supremacy and smoothness and business as usual. And then suddenly we have something like a Black Lives Matter protest creating a glitch in the street in what's supposed to be like a very smooth business as usual through way. So that's a kind of glitch in that instance. And the dimension that I'm really interested in.
So that's a glitch in kind of a social body or in the idea of the body. But I'm really interested in embodiment and the somatic feeling of a glitch. And VR makes glitched embodiment super visible. So it could be something like one of your trackers gets blocked and suddenly your arm is like shooting behind your head. So that's a very common glitch. Or it could be something like, pulling your slime and they lose their grip or they meet the limit of where they can pull on it and it snaps back into place. And even that feeling of your body being stretched out in an unexpected way glitches the normative contours of our bodies. And I think the expectations that are placed on our bodies, within the cis normative regime.
Did that make sense? I know I'm tracing a lot.
Susie (10:50)
It's really fun too. To me, it's such a new concept. So it just feels really tasty for my brain. And also I'm thinking about my work as a somatic therapist, working with folks to understand their proprioception, to experience, okay, I know that my arm is here because I'm putting it up and like to play with shaking and pushing and ways that tell you that your skin is the boundary between you and the world and that there is it's building safety and trust inside of the body usually in a world that is not safe or accepting of queer trans folks of colour bodies.
I want to know how, what you're describing is kind of the opposite thing of your arm's going to go across the, across the room. So, how does your physical body in the material world with now this access to this wacky glitch field.
T. (11:55)
Yeah. So I'll say, well, maybe that wasn't the best example in relation to glitch feminism. Like, that's a very sort of normal, I call them normative glitches within VR. often several times when you're in VR, you'll lose tracking and something like that will happen or your body will twist. And especially if you're looking in a mirror, it can be very uncomfortable and very unsettling to have that kind of experience.
Most people, if they spend a lot of time in VR, will start to become accustomed to that and sort of gloss it over or ignore it. So the glitches that I find really interesting are ones that are relational, where I have a new sense of relationality with another person. So for example, I met my partner in VR. We had for the first year, I think, like an exclusively VR relationship, and then met in the physical world, but we still were long distance. So we still spend most of our time in VR. And some like early experiences I had were of like falling asleep next to her. And for some reason that I still don't understand, my perception became separated from my body. And I woke up, and I looking down at my avatar and at her. And she was talking with my avatar. And my voice was still coming out of it. But I was like, I'm not in my body. I'm not here. But she was very gently speaking with me. And I could see her stroking my face and being like, OK, let's go to bed, to our real beds. And then there was also this sensation of watching her kiss me from being way
And I felt like I could feel her kissing me, but it was in the sense that my body had expanded and it was a safe container in which to expand. So that I think is also really key. And I've done some somatic therapy work and had a lot of personal issues with boundaries and people crossing them and really did a lot of work to like feel myself like this is my body. that's your body. You know, I don't need to take on your emotions, for example, that's something that's been very difficult for me. So I think having done that work, and then finding people who could create that safe container for me in this world that also allows for these sort of boundary lists kind of profound experiences is really key. And I've found that not just with her, but within this like trans and queer community in general I'm is people really work hard to create a safe space. And there's a lot more conversation than in the physical world I find around consent and boundaries. And people will even like in their profiles say like, you know, don't touch me without asking or like, please don't put your hand through me or we'll say things like, I love cuddles, like let's cuddle together. So it's sort of that conversation is always on the forefront, which I find really interesting.
Susie (15:18)
Well, it's queer and queers created consent culture. So it makes sense that you've got containers of safety. And is it early days for this?
T. (15:24)
Yes, The this platform came out, I think, in 2014. So not really. It became popular more in 2018. And at this point, there are like, I don't know, maybe like 50 ,000 users, something like that, usually about like 10 ,000 on online at the same time, which is really tiny. Like it's a very niche comparatively. It's a very niche kind of place and is not super accessible, like financially, or even like, you know, a lot of people will find it too uncomfortable or, you know, it's not even something that is just like, it's kind of in our public consciousness, the concept of VR, but the places where things are actually happening and what's being created, especially in this organic emergent way is not part of the public
Susie (16:27)
There are definitely people listening who are excited by this idea, whether it's new or not, but might be fearful of losing touch with the material world or with their own physical body by going into VR, what would you say to those people?
T. (16:52)
Yeah, I would say that's a very valid concern. And in my friendships and in the interviews that I've done with people who use VR a lot, I'd say the conversation around the downsides or the fears isn't usually quite so specific, but people will say something like, I spend way too much time here, or I know somebody who spends way too much time here, or will just not often take a break for the physical world. So that's very valid and it's not for everybody. And I'm not even sure that like widespread adoption is something that I'd like to see or that I'd be interested in seeing, especially with where the technology is at right now. And I think kind of another dimension that's sort of wrapped up in this question is the kind of like dystopian view that we often see of VR in popular culture, which again, like is very interesting. And I mean, it's also like a sort of common sci -fi thing where our fears, our deepest fears about emerging technologies are reflected in that kind of media, which I think is very valid and interesting.
So, but I guess I'm sort of here to evangelize or if not evangelize to tell stories about the really beautiful and interesting sides of it. And I'll say something else about this also. So I know a lot of people who, for example, have disabilities that don't enable them to leave the house very often or will have like, know, periods of not even being able to get out of bed, or people who have, are neurodivergent in whatever set of ways we can be. They're huge spectrums as we know, and can't access, have trouble accessing intimacy or have a lot of trouble with social interactions in the physical world.
And we'll sometimes tell really compelling stories about through virtual cuddling, they were able to be close to somebody in a way that in the physical world is really uncomfortable for them. Or were able to develop more social skills. And there's also a community of mute people, they call themselves mute. People who, mostly people who can talk but choose not to, oftentimes are too shy and will oftentimes be like very cute kind of small, sweet avatars and will run around and be very animated in their gestures and their way of relating.
And I have friends, like I had a friend that I more recently have talked with them a little bit, but like for the first several months of knowing them, like it would just be seeing them across the room as this tiny little like cat in pajamas, raising their hands and running over and just wanting to give me a hug. And that was the person that I still have some of the most intense phantom sense with. When I hug them, I feel like I can feel the flannel of their pajamas and can feel their joy in that connection. So.
Susie (20:08)
Talk about capacity for connection.
T. (20:10)
Yeah, yeah. and I think it's really transformed my ability to connect with people and my ability to, and my ability to understand the spectrum of connection. Like as an artist, as an academic, my default is a lot of times conversations like this, where like, you know, where, I mean, you're not talking so much right now, but where I would tell you about what I'm doing and my ideas, and you would tell me about what you're doing and your ideas, which is like, I love that form of connecting, but I think sometimes I can connect just that way, or that'll be my default, or that'll be my fallback if I'm uncomfortable. Very up in the head. like, finding ways to connect with people who don't speak at all and want to have like their head patted for five minutes or want to cuddle or want to type something out or just jump around or play a game with me. And these are people I might never meet in the physical world. Or I might see them walking down the street and be like, we have nothing in common. How would we ever connect? So then suddenly there's this myriad of ways to connect that have nothing to do with who we are on a day -to -day basis, much more to do with how we want to connect in that moment and be inventive about the
Susie (21:36)
You're describing so much glee.
T. (21:39)
There's a lot of glee. There's a lot of glee and a lot of fun. I mean, there are dark corners as well, but like the world that I'm in and the people I'm around, like being there has just opened me up in ways that I would have never expected.
Susie (21:54)
I want to ask you my favorite question that I've been waiting to ask you the whole time. What is your biggest dream VR environment that maybe has or hasn't been programmed or even imagined? I want you to go as far as you can go.
T. (21:56)
Yeah. I mean, this is in development, but I'd love to try it. Like haptic, full body haptic suits, meaning that you get often vibrational feedback in real time, I think would be really interesting. So that's more like the technology side. I would love to see a world where we can build our bodies in real time and put them together. So that's not something you can do at this point. And that avatar creation process isn't super accessible. You need a lot of knowledge about 3D modeling. it can be very complicated.
So I would really love to see something like that, where one of my arms could be a slime arm, the other arm could be robot. Maybe my torso is transparent, and you can see my beating heart through it. Maybe my head is a cloud. All of that would be really fun to collage the body, and I think would be a very queer form of body making and communal to do it together.
So, and there are like kind of glimmers of that. Like you can see somebody else's avatar. Like I was at a party where somebody was a floating cat worm and then we all were suddenly floating cat worms and we're like playing with flying around in the air. So that's great. But I wanted to be able to do like the stitching together process with people.
Susie (23:39)
I think you deserve one slime arm and one robot arm. Maybe two slime arms, maybe all slime.
T. (23:43)
As do you. Maybe one day. Well, whatever you want. mean, that's a dream. That's a dream.
Susie (23:51)
Yeah, that's the dream. Is there anything else that you wanted me to ask that I didn't?
T. (23:58)
I don't think so. I mean, I'll say, I would love for whoever is curious to be able to try out this technology at some point. And I would say, do it with somebody who you feel safe with, who you're comfortable with, who can guide you through in a one -on -one way, I think is really nice.
And yeah, I think there's a lot of possibility here. And I think it's also a key moment for people who aren't necessarily coders or 3D modelers or designers. And who like aren't interested in making very polished experiences to just try things out. So like, I would love to see like more workshops around like just building virtual worlds. And I'm leading some workshops like this. I've done some stuff in this field. And I'm just excited to do more and kind of introduce more people to it and for them to also see like it can be accessible. It's not just for, you know, tech bros. It can be for all of us.
Susie (25:07)
for all of us. Well, I feel so satiated from that and also like hungry for more. So maybe see you in the chat room.
T. (25:15)
Wonderful. Yes, yes, you can come over any time and we'll play more VR. Next time I'll let you be the slime monster.
Susie (25:22)
Okay, thank you. I get a turn being slime monster now.
T. (25:26)
Yes, it's your time.